Episode 443: Winning With Etiquette and Consideration of Others with Jamila Musayeva

In this episode, Jamila Musayeva teaches us everything we need to know about the impact of etiquette on building successful relationships. Throughout this episode, you’ll hear about the differences between direct and indirect communication and the nuances of meeting etiquette across cultures. You’ll also gain valuable insights on how to navigate international business interactions, enhance your professionalism, and build stronger, more respectful relationships in both personal and professional environments.

Steve Shallenberger: Welcome to our “Becoming Your Best” podcast. Wherever you may be in the world today, we have a wonderful international guest. Before we get started, I’d like to tell you a little bit about her. She is really spectacular. She’s a certified etiquette consultant, author, and content creator. She’s written three etiquette books: “Etiquette: The Least You Need to Know,” “Afternoon Tea Etiquette,” and “The Art of Entertaining at Home.” She also hosts a popular lifestyle YouTube channel with over 1 million subscribers—way to go! She regularly hosts etiquette workshops and private coaching sessions with ambassadors, young diplomats, and embassy employees around the world. Welcome, Jamila Musayeva.

Jamila Musayeva: Very good, Steve.

Steve Shallenberger: It’s been a delight. We’ve had the chance to visit some before we started the podcast. This is going to be a delightful visit today. We welcome each one of you, our listeners, to “Becoming Your Best: The 12 Principles of Highly Successful Leaders.” I love Principle 10, which is “Apply the Power of Knowledge.” If I were to dedicate all 12 principles, they are wonderful and very powerful, helping us be more successful as leaders, do a better job, and become our best. But this one, “Apply the Power of Knowledge,” is huge, and it’s something that Jamila has done throughout her life. I love her; she’s an inspiration. She’s 33 years old. I’ll tell you just a little bit more about her, but I think we will all gain some knowledge today and find some ways to apply it. So, Jamila graduated summa cum laude in International Affairs at George Washington University before obtaining a Master’s degree in European Political and Administrative Studies from the College of Europe in Belgium. She also got her certification from the International Etiquette and Protocol Academy of London. What a background! We have brought to you the expert on etiquette today. Based in Azerbaijan, Jamila was raised in a culturally rich environment. She’s the mother of two children—a six and a nine-year-old, if I got it right.

Jamila Musayeva: That’s right.

Steve Shallenberger: And they’re close by, being good this morning, listening in. She is fluent in six languages, and her global perspective is deeply ingrained in her work. Her profound knowledge of diplomatic protocol, coupled with her mastery of etiquette, good manners, and luxury living, positions her as a leading figure in the realm of refined behavior. We’ve got so much to talk about here, and she is infinitely qualified. So, let’s get started by hearing from Jamila. Tell us about your background, including any turning points in your life that have had a significant impact on you.

Jamila Musayeva: Thank you so much, Steve, for such a wonderful introduction. I loved it. Thank you for giving pretty much everything that I had to introduce myself with, all the information regarding my background. As you mentioned, I was born and raised here in Azerbaijan, which is a small country. Growing up, I was very much exposed to different languages, cultures, religions, and traditions. Our country is super tolerant; we coexist with a lot of minorities—cultural minorities and religious minorities. Growing up, I was exposed to various cultures and various ways of living and lifestyles. Given that my parents really loved traveling and took me all around the world, I was always exposed to everything around me, other places, and other ways of living. I was naturally a very curious child, interested in other languages as well as other ways of living. Hence, I think that’s where my deep interest in etiquette came from: why we live a certain way, why there are certain rules in certain cultures and ways of living. My upbringing, my background, and the society I was brought up in, coupled with my education, first in the US and then in Europe, and then also returning to Azerbaijan—all of that really influenced my passion for etiquette.

Jamila Musayeva: I realized that we live differently because of our culture, religion, and societal differences, and there is no right or wrong way. There are just some ways that are generally accepted by society, and then there are some deviations from that in terms of tribal ways of doing it and cultural ways of doing it. I kept an open mind when learning about others and why they lived the way they did. I think that was a turning point for me in finding my passion for etiquette and finding my way to this profession today. I never knew that this profession even existed. When I was doing my international relations degree at GW, we had one master class by the Etiquette School of Washington. We attended this huge workshop, and that’s when I realized there are actually people teaching this. I never knew this was something someone could pursue a career in. That class really ingrained itself in my memory, and I remembered how much I loved it and wanted to do something similar.

Steve Shallenberger: Oh, that’s wonderful. Tell us about your books just briefly and how they can be of help in this area.

Jamila Musayeva: Well, I have three books that you mentioned earlier. There’s “Etiquette: The Least You Need to Know.” The inspiration behind this book was that when I finished my etiquette school and was looking for textbooks to start teaching from, especially for beginners, I realized there was nothing out there on the market. You can probably tell more about this since you’ve been in the publishing industry and you know this better. But once I completed my degree, I wanted to buy a lot of books about etiquette. Some books were either too old school, like they were published back in the ‘70s and ‘80s, and many of these were outdated—huge, thick books that not many people were willing to buy and read. Then there were some books that were just tiny lists, brochures for little kids about manners, that were super simplistic and not really for young adults. So, I was looking for something similar, but I couldn’t find it. I decided to write a book that would be like your basic first book to go to whenever you need to polish your knowledge about etiquette. That’s why I called it “Etiquette: The Least You Need to Know,” the least things you need to know to get ready to step into society after finishing school or graduating from university. Bear in mind, Steve, school or university doesn’t prepare you for life after; it doesn’t equip you with the skills you need in the professional world or the social world when you’re meeting people. That’s when the first book came along. Then “Afternoon Tea Etiquette” is just about the British tradition of afternoon tea. It’s something that I find very interesting, and it’s something I personally love to do—hosting people for afternoon tea. That’s the inspiration behind it.

Jamila Musayeva: “The Art of Entertaining at Home” was something that my audience on YouTube asked me to do videos on how to set up a table and how to host people at home. A lot of these people are the young generation, from 18 to 35, who maybe didn’t entertain a lot at home, especially during the pandemic. People have forgotten the art of entertaining. So, a lot of these requests came from my followers on YouTube, and I realized, why not turn this into a course? I actually created an online, pre-recorded course called “The Art of Entertaining at Home,” where I show you how to set up a table and do it according to the four seasons. Then I decided to write a book on this as well so that the book and the online course can go together. You can visually see what I’m explaining, but then you have a book to back it up. That’s basically where my books come from, the inspiration behind them, and these are the books you can gift to someone who’s just getting started with etiquette.

Steve Shallenberger: Oh, I love it. I’m glad I asked that question. It’s so interesting. Nice work, and a way to be creative and innovative and find a way to use your talents and passion to bless other people.

Jamila Musayeva: Sorry if I’m diverting attention a bit, but there was a saying I think of Steve Jobs, who once said, “Create things that you wish existed.” Or I might be wrong if it was him or not, but it’s about creating things that you wish you could use. A lot of the inspiration for writing these books came from wishing they were there in the market because I was searching for them. So, it came from my own need, and I fulfilled it with my own skills.

Steve Shallenberger: Yeah, you’re spot on with that. Well, let’s talk about some etiquette and some styles. Can you explain, Jamila, the difference between direct and indirect communication styles and how these styles can impact business interactions in different cultures?

Jamila Musayeva: If you mean direct, like the way Western cultures are doing business, it’s usually— that’s why I started this podcast by explaining how culture influenced my desire for etiquette. Some cultures aim to have a very clear writing style and be very direct in their communication. They aim to be as clear as they think the other person deserves. These communication styles are often associated with America, Western Europe, and Australia. Culturally, religiously, and mentality-wise, they prefer this direct communication, whether it’s in a handshake or direct eye contact. You never break eye contact while shaking hands with someone or when talking to someone. You should directly say yes or no because if this is a business meeting, especially if we’re talking about business etiquette, your answer should be clear to your client or the person you’re communicating with. In contrast, most of the Middle Eastern world, most Asian countries, and most East Asian countries avoid direct communication. There is often no direct eye contact. A lot of greeting forms are done in a way that avoids eye contact. For example, Indians do Namaste. When doing Namaste, they bow down. The Japanese bow down completely with their hands by their sides and their heads tilted towards the floor, so their gaze is actually on the floor, not on the person. You can even see how, based on the greeting style, the communication is different.

Jamila Musayeva: So, if the West goes for a handshake with a touch-to-touch, eye-to-eye approach, the East goes completely without touching each other. It’s Namaste, it’s bowing, it’s waving. In Taiwan, it’s waving. These are very different ways of greeting. There is a huge emphasis on breaking eye contact if you are keeping it for a duration of time, especially if this is someone above your hierarchy. If this is an elderly person, someone more important than you, you will never maintain direct eye contact for a long period. You’ll have short eye contact and then break it because maintaining prolonged eye contact means you’re being aggressive and disrespectful, which is the other way around in America or Western Europe in general. If you are doing business in Japan or China, you will rarely get a direct “no.” Japanese people always avoid saying “no.” They will never say “no.” So, if you’re doing business with Japan and you haven’t gotten a “no,” that doesn’t mean it’s a “yes.” It might mean a “no” camouflaged under a “yes” because they want to save face. Keeping face is very important in Japanese culture, and not being aggressive or breaking the bridge immediately is very important in Japanese culture. This influences the way business is handled between these two hemispheres. There is a lot of emphasis on interpersonal relationships in the Middle East and Asian countries. Before getting to the deal, they invest a lot of time in getting to know the person, investing in interpersonal relationships, trusting the person, and building that rapport. In the US, it’s getting straight to the deal and the business, which is why the way we communicate is also very different. They are not direct, and this part of the world is more direct. It’s built up from the cultural and religious mentalities that have formed over centuries.

Steve Shallenberger: Oh, yeah. I was just thinking, we’ve been talking a little bit about “Becoming Your Best: The 12 Principles.” This one, “Apply the Power of Knowledge,” is so important. It has a big impact on the outcome, the success of your relationships, and your effectiveness in meetings and everything. Another one is Principle 5: “Live the Golden Rule in Business and in Life.” Really, what Jamila is talking about today is taking the time to be considerate of other people and knowing how they approach relationships. I love the fact that you’re talking about these styles and practices that we should be aware of. How do you learn this? How can you be considerate of other people?

Jamila Musayeva: As you just said before, you have to be knowledgeable. In order to be knowledgeable, you have to get that knowledge. Today, we live in a world where everything is accessible at our fingertips. Back in the day, you’d have to go to a library to find a book on Japan or on the culture. Growing up, I actually remember this: when we traveled with my parents, say, we would travel to Spain. My mom would buy a book about Spain and make us read about Spain before we got there. This way, we understood what language they spoke, and some traditional holidays, dances, and festivals. So, we were aware of the culture we were traveling to see. It helped us understand and remember things better because we had read about it, and then we saw it. Juxtaposing what we saw with what we read ingrained it in our memory a lot better. To answer your question, if you are doing business with Japan, take your time to do your research. Nowadays, thank God, ChatGPT is giving you answers to everything, but always double-check because there’s a lot of misinformation out there. I would say, go for books, published articles, or eBooks that you can find online. If you can’t go out to your library, find books on the culture or the country you want to learn more about. You can start off a relationship with a bad impression, and there is no way to amend that afterwards. Your first impression really matters, especially when you are doing business. If your mission is to make a good impression from the very first go, then you have to take your time, do your research, and become knowledgeable about the culture you’re dealing with.

Steve Shallenberger: Oh, I know a good book written by Jamila Musayeva on etiquette that people can get. Well, that’s a good answer on your part. I appreciate that. What are some key considerations for meeting etiquette in different cultures? Some things we should be aware of.

Jamila Musayeva: Most importantly, the first thing you have to be aware of when you’re greeting people from different cultures is the greeting style. You can observe this when you’re watching a G7 Summit or a G20 Summit, where presidents from all over the world are greeting each other. The very first thing in business etiquette is the greeting style. Every culture greets people differently. As I mentioned earlier, the handshake has become a more common way of greeting; it has become an international standard of greeting across the countires. If we’re talking about handshakes, we’re aiming for a firm handshake, which is web to web, two to three pumps, and elbows at a 90-degree angle. These are the common rules for a good handshake: continuous eye contact, two to three pumps, and then breaking it. It’s important that your hands are out of your pockets, so the other hand that is greeting is in motion, but the other hand should be out of your pocket; you never leave it in your packet. So, a handshake is the standard way. You should also consider other ways of greeting people. If you’re doing business with Japanese people, you will be bowing. The degree of your bow depends on the hierarchy that you occupy towards that person. So, greeting your employee is different to greeting your employer. If you are greeting your employer, your bow should be lower than theirs because you want to show that you are more respectful towards them. So, whoever bows lower means they are paying respect to the other person. There is no eye contact in a bow.

Jamila Musayeva: With namaste, and your palms are towards each other by your chest, you do a little head nod up. So there is a short eye contact, but it’s broken. That’s an Indian way of greeting. In the Middle East, a man should not greet a woman unless she has extended her hand for a handshake. You never generally extend your hand for a handshake as a man first, especially if it’s a social setting. In business, you’d wait for a woman as well because if this is a Muslim woman, maybe a religious woman from a Jewish background, you want to be safe. Allow the woman to extend her hand for a handshake first. In the Middle East, men tend to greet by cheek kisses or they’ll just rub their noses towards each other, depending on the region. So, a close-nose touch is the right way to explain this. But this will occur if they know you well and if you’re from the same region. They will not obviously greet a foreigner like that; a foreigner will be greeted with a handshake. There’s a lot of patting on the shoulder. There’s a lot of patting on the back. There’s some embracing happening. In Europe, for example, especially in France, the greeting will be a very tight hug. You can watch this with the heads of state. Back when Angela Merkel was in office, the way she used to hug Macron was super intimate. They would hug each other, do kisses on the cheek a few times, which is not the way she greeted any other leader. So, she changed her greeting style according to the leader that she was meeting. I’ve actually done extensive analysis of this, showing how one person can greet different heads of state differently based on their cultural background. You would have never seen her do that, say, with a Turkish PM. An interesting thing I wanted to bring to your attention, Steve: back in the days when Obama was president, he was visiting Japan, and on his tour, he actually went to greet the PM of Japan. He went for a handshake and a bow. So he was bowing and handshaking at the same time, which created a lot of noise in the media because they were saying how he bowed lower than the American flag. There was a diplomatic protocol that was broken there. But also, you can’t do two styles together. You can either bow or handshake because these are contradictory greeting styles.

Steve Shallenberger: Oh, that’s great. It’s so interesting. As business and interactions become increasingly digital, how can professionals ensure that they’re still respecting cultural nuances and maintaining effective cross-cultural communication?

Jamila Musayeva: I think it comes down to what we were talking about earlier—education and knowledge. Equipping yourself with knowledge is essential. If you’re doing mostly digital communication with people from other cultures, you can get a coaching session or advice from someone from the same culture, asking what is the right way of handling communication. One thing I wanted to note when it comes to business is punctuality. Punctuality is very different from culture to culture. In the West, 6 PM means 6 PM; if someone schedules a meeting at six, it’s at six. In Arab countries and most of Middle Eastern countries, 6 PM can be going anywhere from six until seven. So, they have this liberty of time. There’s this mentality that if God wants, it will happen, so there’s no need to rush for things. Actually, I would say this is true, and it’s also dependent on climate. A lot of people from warmer regions and warmer countries like Latin America, Italy, Middle East, these people tend to take time more leisurely than people from the northern hemisphere. Maybe it’s because of the sunlight exposure where people are more careful with making everything on schedule, versus in warmer countries where the sun is always out, the idea is that we’ll eventually make it. If not six, we’ll meet at seven. I have found a lot of clients who would get offended when they were dealing with clients from the Middle East or from Asia who would show up later than they had scheduled, and they would get into this misunderstanding. The point here is to come without any expectations. Leave your understanding of punctuality aside if you’re trying to work with people from other cultures and try to put yourself into their mentality that they’re not doing this to offend you personally. They’re not doing it because they’re not respecting your time. This is their way of living, and that’s important to understand.

Steve Shallenberger: Are you saying that if we set up a meeting at 6 PM, you may have some cultures that say, “Hold it. What that means is 6 PM to 7 PM.” I love it. That’s important to know so you don’t get upset, and you can just go with the flow, get down to what’s important, create the relationship, respect them, and then get to work.

Jamila Musayeva: Exactly. The most important thing, Steve, is not to take things personally. I remember when my client was first dealing with most of his clients in the Middle East, he’d get really personal, like, “You know, I flew all over the country, I set up a meeting, they were supposed to be there, and they weren’t there.” I said, “Listen, this is not because they’re not respecting your time. This is just their way of handling their own schedule. You have to understand that this is a cultural thing and a mentality; it has nothing to do with you.” It’s important to keep that in mind.

Steve Shallenberger: What are some of the most common etiquette mistakes a professional can make, and how can they avoid them?

Jamila Musayeva: Oh, there are a lot of mistakes that can be made. I think a lot of them, again, have to do with cultural nuances that need to be studied to be avoided. In business etiquette, one of the most common things I’ve seen happen, based on my clients’ case studies, is a man extending his hand for a handshake to a woman at a business meeting, and the woman, due to her cultural, religious, or personal preferences, not extending her hand back. This leaves the man feeling embarrassed, with his hand hanging, not knowing what to do, and not knowing where to put it. So, this is a big misunderstanding when it comes to who does what first. Also, introductions—people are often shy about introducing others and are hesitant about who should be introduced to whom. If you’re an employee and have to introduce your employer to your VIP client, who do you introduce to whom? This can be a big dilemma because your employer is very important to you, but so is your VIP client. The idea here is that if this is a client visiting your business, firm, or company, the VIP client would be your guest of honor. He or she would be the most important person. The way you introduce them is by pronouncing the name of the most important person first. So, you would say, “Mr. John Smith, may I introduce to you my boss, Mr. David Clarke.” It’s important to first say the name of the most important person, then say, “May I introduce to you,” not “you to,” because that reverses the roles. If you say, “May I introduce you to,” it means you’re introducing your client to your boss, giving your boss an upper hand. You have to do it the other way around so you make your client feel a lot more special.

Jamila Musayeva: Then, say, “May I introduce to you,” and then you introduce your boss. It’s important to give some information about your boss or your client. For example, “Our long-time colleague has been here for 20 years and is one of the best bosses, and he loves hockey.” Then, give some information about your client that could potentially help them have a conversation. So, you know your client also loves hockey; you can mention that and allow them to start a conversation about that topic. Introductions are also a hugely important part of business etiquette. Also, dress codes are a big thing. I’ve seen a lot of mishaps in business etiquette when it comes to dress codes, and that also differs from culture to culture. Western Europe views formal dress codes much more seriously than in the US. Especially in the US, business casual has taken over. So, jeans and polo shirts are common, and I’ve seen some people wear sneakers to work. Things have changed in the US, whereas, if you are in Italy or France, an office is still very much business formal. So, if you’re doing business in Europe, definitely don’t show up in your sneakers and polo shirt. Try to dress up a notch when you’re in Europe or the Middle East, where formality is still very important. If you’re doing business in Asia, especially in Japan or China, they are very formal in their dress codes, even today, which is not something you see much in the US. There are a lot of mistakes we can cover.

Steve Shallenberger: Well, that’s a good start. Jamila and I were visiting a little bit about one of my first companies. When I was a young entrepreneur, I bought a printing and publishing company. We produced children’s books, and one of the sets we produced was the Winner Series. One of the books was named “Winning Is Having Good Manners.” I was thinking about that, and I’d be interested in your take because it may be different in the world, but in the US, people sitting at a table often aren’t sure when they should start eating when the food is delivered. What we discovered, whether it’s right or wrong, is that good etiquette is, if there are six or fewer people, you wait for everybody to have their food delivered before you start eating. But if there are more than six, then you can start eating when your food is delivered.

Jamila Musayeva: That is true, with small remarks that I want to add. If the host or hostess has unfolded the napkin and placed it on their lap, even if only three of the six guests have arrived, but the host has sat at the table and unfolded the napkin, that means it’s a green flag to start. That’s the gesture that shows let’s start. The rule for six and above applies to formal dining experiences where the host is not seated with you. For example, at a wedding where the host is somewhere else and you have individual tables, you can start eating once all the people at your table have been served. But if this is a long table, your food will get cold by the time everyone is served, so you should start eating as soon as the people around you—those to your right, left, and in front of you—have been served and have started eating. That’s when you start eating, too.

Steve Shallenberger: This has been a fun interview. I cannot believe it, but we’re already at the end of our visit today. It’s gone by so quickly. Any final tips you’d like to leave with our listeners today, Jamila?

Jamila Musayeva: I just want to finish off with this. Thank you, first and foremost, for this opportunity to talk to your audience. I also want to leave them with a final thought. When you said winning is having good manners, or having good manners is knowing etiquette, I want to tell all your listeners that manners still matter a lot. We might not necessarily understand them as manners, or we might not necessarily think of them as such, but they represent a holistic approach to how we want to present ourselves in the best possible light. It’s not just about what we wear, how we walk, or how we talk. It’s a comprehensive study of everything. Starting from the way we groom ourselves, the way we walk, talk, and hold ourselves. It is the one thing that will make you stand out from the crowd. So, if five candidates have diplomas from the same IB schools, the one with the best manners and the best way to represent himself will get the best job and the best opportunities. At the end of the day, when school is over, it’s up to us—our personal skills and behavior—to carve our way to the opportunities we get in life. It’s really important to still take account of your manners. If you haven’t been lucky enough to learn them in your younger years, it’s never too late. You can still learn and become your best possible self.

Steve Shallenberger: What a great interview and great information and knowledge you’ve shared. How can people find out more about what you’re doing?

Jamila Musayeva: They can follow me on YouTube, where, as you mentioned, I have over 1 million subscribers now. They can find me on my website, which is jamilamusayeva.com. They can get my books there, join my pre-recorded online etiquette courses that they can view at their own convenience, and book workshops or masterclasses with me, as well as online coaching. Additionally, I have a Patreon Etiquette Movie Club, which offers unique content where every month I analyze different Hollywood or European movies from an etiquette standpoint. It’s something unique. I think there are no digital creators that do that. They can find it on my Patreon Etiquette Movie Club.

Steve Shallenberger: Thank you, Jamila Musayeva, for being a part of our show today. It’s been wonderful, and I know I will be better because of it. I’m excited to read your books and learn more. We wish you all the best in what you’re doing.

Jamila Musayeva: Thank you so much, Steve. Thank you for having me and for doing what you’re doing because it’s so helpful for people to always improve and be the best version of themselves. Thank you.

Steve Shallenberger: You bet. And to all of our listeners, thank you for joining us. We wish you the best. We’re grateful for your influence and your desires to make a positive difference in the world. This is Steve Shallenberger, wishing you a great day.