Episode 418: What is Qi Gong and How Can it Transform Your Life?” with Lee Holden

In this episode, Lee Holden joins us to enlighten us about this beautiful millenary practice, Qi Gong. Throughout this episode, Lee shares the principles of Qi Gong, what it is, how and why it works, and why he got so passionate about it. You’ll learn how to activate your healing power using Qi Gong, the importance of incorporating movement into your daily routine, how much you should practice this millenary technique before getting results, and much more.

Rob Shallenberger: Welcome back to our Becoming Your Best podcast listeners. So grateful for you joining us, wherever you’re in the world today. This is going to be an awesome guest today. Not only is he amazing because I am a subscriber of his own courses, and I’ve watched them and participated in his own courses, but just what he’s teaching is really life-changing for anyone who does it. We’ll get into what all of that means here when we get into the podcast. But I came across Lee Holden about six or seven months ago. We get nothing from what we’re doing today, as far as an affiliate agreement or anything like this. I’m having him as a guest because I believe in what he’s doing. It’s just been powerful. Again, I will reiterate what I said: I think it’s life-changing for anybody that will do that. In today’s crazy world, we need more of what he’s going to talk about. So, what we’re going to focus on today is what’s called Qigong. If you’ve never heard of it, that’s all right. He’s going to get into details around what that means. If you’ve maybe heard in passing but not sure what it means, that’s all right. Or maybe you have even practiced Qigong or a cousin of Qigong, and that’s great. He’s going to share some different insights that will apply, basically, to anywhere we are today as a starting point. So, with all that said, first of all, Lee, thanks for joining us.

Lee Holden: Hey, thanks so much for having me, Rob. I’m so glad that you’re doing your Qi practice; it gives us so much more to talk about from an experiential point of view. That’s where this practice really shines is when people start practicing it because it feels amazing.

Rob Shallenberger: It does, and I experienced that myself. So, let’s jump into this because there are a lot of people listening to this who will have never heard of Qigong, or maybe they heard the term and don’t know what it might mean. So, first of all, what is Qigong? And how did you get into the stuff that you’re doing now, as far as an instructor, and this is what you’re doing for your life work at this point? So, what is it? And how did you get to this point where you’re at now?

Lee Holden: That’s a great question. I got into it through collegiate sports. I was a collegiate soccer player, and I had an injury. There’s nothing like an injury that just brings you face-to-face with who you are, and what life’s all about. When you’re injured, you’re just like, “Oh, my gosh, health is the most important thing in my life. How can I get healthier?” So I had a lower back injury. I was 19 years old, the doctors told me that I wasn’t going to play the rest of the season. So, I was kind of hobbling around for a month. I had tried the painkillers, I got some cortisone shots, and nothing was working. In fact, the painkillers gave me a stomachache. So, now I had back pain and a stomachache. And I remembered, in my hometown, I had taken some martial arts classes. One of those martial artists was an acupuncturist as well as a Qigong teacher. In fact, I saw him break a big stack of bricks. And I remember this, this stuck out so relevantly in my mind, because afterward, I said, “How did you do that?” And he said, “The power of Qi.” I always remember this. I was like, “I’m gonna go see that guy, and see if he can help me with my back,” because after he broke the big stack of bricks, he said, “Qi is for healing; it’s not for hurting people,” which is a good point to make for a 10-year-old. So I went and saw him, and he gave me some acupuncture. He showed me these really simple stretches and these Qigong exercises, and in about a week, I was about 90% better. In about two weeks, I was 95% better and playing soccer again. I was showing all my soccer player friends the exercises. I started teaching them. I was like, “Check this out. Look at this. If you feel like you’re tight in your back, or you have tension in your neck and shoulders, try these few moves.” And it was just a revelation for me because it was like, “Why aren’t more people doing these very natural things to help their bodies heal?” It became a catalyst for me to go into this line of work. So what was my kind of worst moment turned into some of my best moments because it was this catapult for me to go in a different direction. I immediately started studying Qigong, I started practicing it on a daily basis, and I started sharing it with my friends. It became my life’s mission to help spread the word and help people activate their own healing power. Rob, you said, “What is Qigong?” “Qi” simply means “energy.” It is life force, energy, and we all have energy. It’s what keeps you alive. It’s the beating of your heart; it’s the light in your mind; it’s your very breath. So, “Qi” is this aliveness within you, and “Gong” simply means “to work with.” So, it can be translated as “energy work,” “breath work,” or just “a skill at living life.” The skill that’s working with your mind, your thoughts, your consciousness, your spirit, your emotions, your body, and how they all integrate together, which is very, very fascinating because it is like holistic medicine.

Rob Shallenberger: I actually wrote two little notes while you were talking there, Lee. Number one, what you said about health. I think anybody listening to this can resonate because, at some point in our life, we’ve all had an injury or something—mental, physical, whatever it is. I just love this quote that I heard about a year ago; it’s resonated with me: “A person without health has one dream, and a person with health has many dreams.” In other words, if we don’t have health, if we’re not in a healthy place, our only focus is, “Man, let’s get this fixed—” survival, whatever that is. That’s why Qigong can be so powerful. The other thing that I might just note on this, as you talk about Qi, there’s guaranteed to be some skeptics out there, and I have no problem with someone being skeptical. What I hope that will lead to is more research, and someone doing a little bit more digging to find out for themselves. When you talk about this energy and the spirit that’s inside of us, no one can actually refute that, though. Because how is it that the human body, if you connect the nodes correctly, can power a light bulb? No one can dispute or refute the fact that we are beings of energy. So, let’s build on that. Now that you’ve been doing this for years, and you have made it your life’s work. And again, I’ll just reiterate, I know you because I’ve been doing your courses for six months, and I can attest to the positive impact they’ve had in my life as well as thousands of others. Now, from your perspective, since you’ve been doing this for years, what are some things that you’ve learned or observed along the way?

Lee Holden: Those are such great points. What I’ve learned and observed is just what you said: health is our greatest asset, and energy has a big part in that, and energy can make a big difference in your life. Whether you believe it or not, I can ask almost anybody and say, “How’s your energy?” and people either say, “I’m feeling a little down; I’m feeling a little low.” Whether you believe it or not, it’s beside the point because a practice like Qigong can really help you live your best life. Qi, let’s make no mistake, it is irrefutable, but it’s also mystical. It has a long history in ancient cultures, whether it’s Ayurveda from India, Native American, or Chinese medicine, they work with this life force energy. Well, Western medicine does, too, we just do it in a very, very different way. We’re doing it from a symptomatic approach, like, “Oh, I have a headache, so take a painkiller.” We’re working on it from the symptoms and trying to establish health by getting rid of the sickness, whereas in Chinese medicine, you work on health directly. So you’re going to be working on, let’s say, your vitality, how much energy you have. Qigong is a practice of lowering stress, getting you out of pain, and increasing your energy. We do increase energy from a natural, internal place, rather than, let’s say, an external, “I need an energy drink or a cup of coffee” kind of place. We want it naturally. There are many different kinds of energy within you, and you all know that. There’s the energy of relaxation; there’s the energy of sleep; there’s the “get up and go” energy; there’s the energy of inspiration and excitement.

Lee Holden: What’s the difference between inspiration, excitement, passion, or being depressed, down, and anxious? Those are two very different qualities of energy. Just think about your emotional state; there’s nothing physical about that. It is energy moving through you—energy, e-motion, energy in motion. We can’t do open-heart surgery and see how much love you have in there; it is a vibration, it is energy. In Qigong, we say life is ruled by invisible forces, and those invisible forces are your mind. There are electrical impulses in your brain that create thoughts. But just the fact that when you close your eyes, and you can see images, you just touch upon the mystical right there because there’s no light source in your mind. There are just these electrical impulses. There is no projector that allows you to see images like a movie screen. Even your heartbeat is something very mystical. When I was interviewing a doctor, they said, “Your heartbeat is so mysterious. It’s like a match that learns how to strike itself, and then it burns down and it regrows itself and strikes itself again.” This energy in your heart doesn’t work like normal physics; it’s mysterious, it’s mystical, and nobody knows how it started. In Chinese medicine, it would be called Heart Qi, the life force behind the heart. The way in which energy flows and circulates through you determines how happy, healthy, and fulfilled we are in our lives.

Lee Holden: So, it can be very, very important to work with. Like I said, “Gong” means to work with it in a skillful way. You can just look at your life and say, “Hey, am I working with my Qi, the gift, this precious life force energy that we’ve been endowed with? How well am I working with it? What’s the quality of my thoughts? What are the quality of my emotions? How much vibrancy and vitality do I have in my body? And how do those integrate?” That’s the practice that we work with. Qigong is a movement practice like Tai Chi and yoga, breath work, or mindfulness. But it really addresses all layers and aspects of yourself. I tell people, “Hey, you don’t always have enough time to go to the gym, practice meditation, and do a yoga class. But in Qigong, you get all of those things in one concise practice, without having to put on your spandex. You can do it in just everyday street clothes.” And the beautiful thing about it is you can, in about 20 minutes, feel a complete shift where your stress levels go down, and your energy levels go up. And when you’re energized, you are a better version of yourself. When you have low energy and you’re depleted, life becomes overwhelming. We don’t act from our best selves; we actually get agitated, irritated, we’re snappy. So the whole practice is to increase energy, to stay centered, and move through life in a flowing, effortless way.

Rob Shallenberger: That’s really well said. So let me build on that with a couple more questions here. So you mentioned Tai Chi and yoga and things like that. I actually love what you just said because that’s one of the challenges that people face is, “I know, meditation is important. Well, okay, meditation. I know yoga is important. Okay, yoga. Now, you’re telling me one more thing, Qigong.” What I love that you said, though, is it’s really a combination of those. So, this is not the only one in the world, certainly. But this is a very powerful one-stop shop where a person can get all of those. That’s exactly been my experience. So, I don’t want to [12:26 inaudible], but someone that’s not familiar with this, may hear Tai Chi or Qigong. What’s the difference between yoga, Tai Chi, and Qigong?

Lee Holden: Tai Chi and Qigong are really similar. They come from the same source. We often say Qigong is the mother of Tai Chi. Tai Chi is about 800 years old. Qigong dates back some four or five thousand years into the early practices of Chinese medicine. In fact, I think is a really interesting point: people would pay their Chinese medicine doctor to keep them healthy. The Chinese medicine doctor would do acupressure, dietary, and herbal recommendations, and they would teach them Qigong exercises. Now, as long as you were healthy, you kept paying your doctor. And as soon as you got sick, you stopped paying. So it really was true health care; you pay for health, and as soon as you got sick, you’re like, “Hey, doctor, you’re not doing your job.” Can you imagine going to the doctor and saying, “You know what, Doc, I got a headache. I’m not going to pay you today.” Our medicine is totally based on sick care, not health care. We have great medicine. Western medicine is amazing, especially for emergency medicine, but to live your best life, to increase health and vitality, to stay on the journey of health, and not just wait till we get sick, you need to look somewhere else, like this type of practice.

Lee Holden: Now, Tai Chi started as a martial art. The Tai Chi Martial Artists were very powerful because they cultivated internal energy, they cultivated Chi. Tai Chi became very well known in China because the Tai Chi masters went around China and challenged other martial artists to sparring competitions. And they did so well that the Imperial Guard said, “Hey, we want you to teach and train our army.” So they did, and Tai Chi kind of spread that way. But Tai Chi really is an internal martial art, whereas Qigong has much more to do with health, vitality, healing yourself, activating internal power and energy. Nowadays, people practice Tai Chi for the same reasons they practice Qigong—for energy cultivation, for relaxation, and flexibility. But Tai Chi is a little more challenging to learn because you have to memorize movements. So it takes longer to learn, whereas Qigong is a little more accessible because one movement repeats itself for a bit, and then you go on to the next movement.

Lee Holden: While Tai Chi and Qigong really sprung forth from China, Yoga sprung forth from India. And there was a lot of sharing of information. In fact, one of the most famous Qigong masters was an Indian yogi, a traveling yogi called Bodhidharma. He crossed over through Tibet into China. He combined martial arts exercises, Qigong practices, and started the Shaolin temples with postures and breathing exercises. So there was a lot of sharing of information between China and India. Indian Yoga, a lot of the postures, you hold them, you stretch and breathe into postures, and then maybe flow into another posture. While Qigong is much more flowy, much more soft and gentle. In fact, Qigong movements mirror the movements of water, recognizing that water is very soft, gentle, and relaxing, but it’s also very powerful. You stand in a river current, you feel the power of that water; you stand in an ocean wave, it is very powerful. So when you train to move your body like water, you connect to that flow state and integrate or allow your energy to be very coherent, which generates that internal power. And I think that’s where the magic of this practice is, is when you get into those flowing movements because your body is moving, but you’re also in a very meditative state of mind. And you access those deep internal energy reserves.

Rob Shallenberger: I love that. I’ve done a lot of yoga, and I like yoga. If I had to put them side by side, I really do like Qigong more for the following reasons that you talked about. I feel like there’s a flow to it. Good water analogy, I really liked that as well. Here’s a personal question. I’m guessing others who get into this will have a similar question, so this is as much for me as it might be for the listeners. And that is, does it matter the amount of time, the frequency—meaning the times or days a week—that we do this? Does it matter the amount? And if so, how much does it matter? And I know the answer is going to be, of course, the more we do it, the better it is. I’ll just give our listeners an example. So I’ve been in your courses now for six or seven months, and you have a short version on your courses that you do throughout the week, and then you have a longer version, which is about an hour. Your short versions are like 20 minutes, and those are typically what I’ve been doing. And in the back of my mind, I’m always asking, “What am I missing out on by not doing the hour?” That’s the genesis of my question: Does it matter? Or how much does it matter, maybe is the better question.

Lee Holden: That is a great question. “What’s the minimal amount of time to make an impact in my life?” I always ask people, “What are your goals? Where are you starting from?” So, if your life, we plotted it out on a map, we can say, “Hey, where are you starting from? And where do you want to get to?” If somebody is very ill or sick and has low energy, their journey to that destination might be a little bit different than, say, you, Rob, where you’re maybe healthy, you practice many different things to stay healthy. You doing a 20-minute version is going to have a lot of effect because you’re already in good shape. So, it depends on the person, depends on age, health, energy levels, and goals. But you can get a wonderful practice in 20 minutes. And folks, what Rob was talking about was my subscription. So, each week, I do three classes; we break those into a 20-minute or an hour version of that subscription, and then you can choose based on the day. And you can get a lot of benefits in a short practice, especially if you’re consistent. So, what I tell people is, “Hey, maybe today you do 20 minutes, maybe tomorrow, you only do five minutes, but maybe the next day, you can get an hour in.” So, mix it up a little bit. The most important thing is that you get a variety of movements in your daily life.

Lee Holden: And you’re talking about earlier research from a Western medicine perspective. It’s now well-researched that sitting is not good for you; sitting too long, they call it the new smoking; sedentary people, it’s unhealthy. It’s better to get a variety of movement in your body. Just like it’s good to have a variety in your diet of healthy foods, get a variety of movements. So, flowing movements, exercise, a walk, a little weightlifting, that variety can be very, very healthy. And what I like about Qigong is it does give you a wide variety of exercises that are really important. So, all that being said, look at your life. If you only have five minutes, do five minutes. I coach people through, in companies, Qi breaks. So, every hour or two, stand up and do three minutes of Qigong. Do something really simple. Do something simple while you’re seated. That Qigong practice can be taking some nice slow, deep breaths. You don’t even have to move, but just doing something and being aware of your energy is going to pay dividends and rewards. You know what I also tell people is that you don’t have time not to do Qigong because, when you do your practice, you are more efficient, you’re less stressed, you’re more energized. There’s clarity in your mind; you get a lot more done when you’re energized than when you’re fatigued.

Rob Shallenberger: Amen to that. That’s exactly what I’ve experienced. So, let me ask you this: is all Qigong created equal? In other words, I’ve gone to YouTube and I found a ton of YouTube videos, “Qigong, 10-minute this, and five-minute that.” And of course, I think I know the answer, which is, of course, they’re not. Having said that, if someone is just starting out—and this is where I’m going with the question—if someone’s just starting out, what’s something they can do right now, to get started and try it? I love the way that you approach it. There’s a structured approach to it. You have a ton of courses on your website for different things. I’ll just say “things” to keep it pretty broad. Someone that’s listening to this podcast, and they are like, “Hey, this Qigong sounds kind of cool, sounds kind of interesting. What could I do?” What would you suggest?

Lee Holden: Exactly that. I think try it. Because you trying it is a great way to get an internal perspective, and have an experience of it. Lots of people have these aha moments when they give it a try. It’s a wonderful set of practices, just for health and vitality. Now, there are 3000 styles of Qiong. So, there’s a lot of different practices. One of the things that happened to me after I graduated from college, I got hired as a ghostwriter for a Qigong master who lived in Thailand. So, I flew to Thailand a few times a year and spent months training with this particular master. But I had the same question. I wanted to learn from other people. I wanted to see what they were doing in China, and what they were doing in Japan. So, I did trips to China, Hong Kong, Beijing, and all across China to study with different teachers and masters. There are masters in Tokyo, and in Japan, I studied with masters in Indonesia as well. And then the question for me was, how do I explain this to my soccer player friends that are now getting work in Silicon Valley, and all stressed out, and here I was traveling to Asia. They were making a lot more money than I was, but I was having some really interesting experiences.

Lee Holden: It’s true. There are styles of Qigong that are very stationary, like standing meditations. There are Qigong styles that are very stretch-oriented. There are Qigong styles that are very martial-oriented. You break Qigong into three different categories. One is medical, like we’re talking about; that’s kind of where I focused, first and foremost, on how we use this practice to create healing in our own lives, to stay healthy, and to cultivate vibrant health. There are martial styles where you cultivate Qi and energy for your martial arts training. And then there are spiritual styles that are very much meditation-oriented, where you’re sitting meditation, and maybe you circulate energy, and you connect to the universe, your purpose for being here on this planet, divine wisdom, and then you figure out how they all integrate together. And the integration of those practices can be very, very helpful. That’s what I love about it. The reason I chose the particular style that I did is because I wanted to explain it to people in modern life. So, my particular style is integrative. It helps us with those very things that we need, which is stress management, pain, neck tension, and low back issues. I want it to be immediately helpful for your life.

Rob Shallenberger: Hey, we got his daughter joining us. For those listening, this is awesome. So, how old’s your daughter right there?

Lee Holden: How old are you? She’s three. I thought she was napping. But somebody snuck out of bed and now is saying hi to everybody. And speaking of energy, Rob, this one has a ton of energy. Three-year-olds have a lot of energy.

Rob Shallenberger: That’s awesome. How many kids do you have in total, Lee?

Lee Holden: I have four daughters. The real reason I do Qigong.

Rob Shallenberger: So, I have an older son and then three daughters. We’re pretty close.

Lee Holden: Oh, how wonderful. That’s beautiful. I have twin 15-year-olds, a 13-year-old, and then my three-year-old here.

Rob Shallenberger: That’s a good gap, isn’t it?

Lee Holden: It’s a good gap. Teenagers and toddlers are really similar. You’re just constantly focused on helping them be their best selves. I’m constantly like, “Hey, don’t put that in your mouth.” To all these guys, we got grandma here. We have to be quiet because daddy is working. Do you want Tita to give you a treat? Oh yeah. Thanks, Tita. We got her grandma here helping.

Rob Shallenberger: That was fun to meet Lee’s daughter there; looks like she’s off now, and someone else has got her, so that was fun to see your family there, Lee. We are ready to wrap this up. The way I found you was doing exactly what we were just talking about. I had gone to the internet. I found all these different YouTube videos; I’ve watched and done a lot of them. So different people, different styles. And here’s my issue with that: there wasn’t a lot of structure to it. And to your point, doing something is better than nothing. But I just felt like it would be nice to have something that was a little more consistent without me just having to go to YouTube and picking any random person. And that’s when I came across your site, which is HoldenQigong.com. Again, we get nothing from this; there is no affiliate relationship. I’m promoting this because I’ve really experienced the benefits from it. What I loved about your site is the organization, the structure, and the flow, as well as the flexibility. We talked about the short versus the longer version. If someone’s dealing with certain things like anxiety or other issues, you have specific courses designed just for those. That’s my perspective on it. How did you get to the point where you set it up so well? Because I think you have a really well-organized site and system and processes in place that can really be beneficial to people for that reason. I’m just curious, how did you get there, from traveling around the world being a ghostwriter for other people? Because it’s really well organized, and I’ve loved the way you’ve set it up on your site.

Lee Holden: That’s a great question. I set up my site like this because I wanted to give people tools and resources to handle their most challenging problems, whether it’s anxiety, insomnia, back pain, neck and shoulder pain, high blood pressure, or digestive issues. I wanted them to really understand that this practice could help them heal. At the time when I started breaking my practices down into condition-specific, I had shows on public television that were starting to be really popular. I had a PBS show that went out across the country because I designed it that way. I said, “Qigong for stress,” or people would be like, “I got stress, let me try this weird thing that’s called Qi-what?” And then they got into Qigong from there. I wanted to make it really practical and accessible. I wanted to explain this practice without saying, “Hey, just do it and follow me.” I wanted you to understand that meditation is good for you; it’s anti-aging. People who meditate biologically have an age about 10 years younger than their actual age. Same with exercise, exercise is good for you. When you combine them, you get this really beautiful beneficial practice that can start to not only heal your ailments but also give you a lot more energy and vitality. I was finding that as my shows went out on public television, people were writing in and saying, “Wow, I feel better; it helped me with this.” I had a much larger audience to see that, yes, this practice really, really worked. And it worked in this beautiful way from the inside out; they didn’t have to take a pill, they didn’t need surgery, they had this power of healing from the inside out, which we all do. And that is what really was making me passionate about this practice. So, now, instead of having DVDs, I have online courses for condition-specific ailments. We have a subscription to keep your energy high. And then I’ve done everything all the way up to a teacher training where people are going through my online teacher training with our teachers, with myself, and getting certified so that they can start to spread the word and teach and help people truly master their own internal energy.

Rob Shallenberger: I’m glad you articulated that. This is really something we could sit here and listen to all day long. But in the end, we have to experience it. It’s one of those things that we just have to experience. I know that you have your website, HoldenQigong.com. Is that the best place for someone to go who’s just starting out? Do you have a different landing page? Or what’s the best place for someone to go if they want to look into this?

Lee Holden: HoldenQigong.com is the best place to go. We have currently a free two-week trial, so you can come take those classes that Rob was talking about and try them out for free and try it for yourself. You get access to the 20-minute versioc and the hour version; there’s little meditations involved. If you look at HoldenQigong.com, you can see a lot of conditions specific ailments. So, you can say, “Oh, yeah, I have insomnia,” click, and you have a whole routine that’s there for you. We have samples of a lot of those things on YouTube as well. So you can check out HoldenQigong.com or Holden Qigong on YouTube and just see a bunch of little short routines, but the place to get the full routines and all that stuff is HoldenQigong.com. So, I appreciate that.

Rob Shallenberger: One thing I’ve just got to laughingly say is it’s the coolest thing. I love the names of all these movements. Now, we’re going to do “Flowing Dragon goes into the water.”

Lee Holden: I love that. That was a good one. They are all poetic. Qigong originated by mirroring the movements of nature. Whether it’s “Tree Sways in the Wind,” the “Swimming Dragon,” or the “Bear Frolics,” it’s just that these people watched nature move and said, “Hey, we’re part of nature. Let’s move our bodies in these very natural ways, and get this Qi, this life-force energy, circulating and see what happens.” And what happened was, they just became a better version of themselves: happier, healthier, and more resourced when they do these practices.

Rob Shallenberger: Well, thank you so much for being here, Lee. I hope that as a result of listening to this, if you’re out there listening, wherever you’re at in the world, that if nothing else, this has sparked your interest enough to say, “You know what, I’m gonna look into this a little bit more. Maybe there’s something to this.” Maybe there is. So, for you listening, I would encourage you to look into this, see what impact it might have after doing it for a week or two, and see how you feel. And if it’s really benefiting you, keep it up. If not, then, of course, you can stop. So, it’s one of those things that I view as nothing lost and a lot to gain. As we get ready to wrap up, any final comments, Lee, that you would like to make?

Lee Holden: No, I just appreciate you sharing this information with your audience and how you set up this interview. It was just great and very skillful. I think the more people that know about this practice, the better their lives are going to be. When I look at modern life, speaking of teenagers, kids aren’t taught this. We haven’t been taught how to access our resources. We all have technology and devices, but we don’t have this internal technology that really helps us to be happier people. Modern technology isn’t a practice of being happier and healthier. There’s some contentment about it, definitely, and there’s some satisfaction. But to live more vibrantly, it’s important to lean into these internal technologies that really help with cultivating energy. So, I think, to balance everything that’s going on in modern life, all the stress, all the external pull, we need something that really helps get us resourced from the inside out, and I love this practice for that.

Rob Shallenberger: That’s a perfect way to wrap this up because I agree with everything you just said, Lee. So, to all of our listeners, thank you for joining wherever you are in the world. We hope you have a great day and a wonderful rest of your week.