Lessons Learned with Jeff Burningham

Rob Shallenberger: All right, friends, welcome back to the Becoming Your Best podcast. This is your host, Rob Shallenberger. And today, we have a good friend and an amazing leader who has done so much to influence the lives of others. And you get a sense of people’s character, you get a sense of who they are, just by watching them. On social media, they post or share thoughts, pictures, and you can get a sense of where someone’s priorities are by what they’re doing, by their background, their history. So, I’d like to welcome Jeff Burningham to the show today, and I’m going to let him give a little bit of his background, but maybe I’ll just give a high-level overview and say some things that he may not say. And then, we’re going to get into some details because Jeff is one of those people that just has an incredible amount of background experience, and really a wealth of ideas that would benefit so many people. So, I’m grateful that he’s taking the time to come today. So, Jeff, first of all, welcome to our show! 


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, Rob, thanks for having me. I’m excited to be here. And congrats on your success with the podcast and it’s awesome. 


Rob Shallenberger: Well, let me give you the high-level of Jeff. When I first came across Jeff, what I found was someone who had been very successful in business. And I’m like, “Okay, this is a guy to watch.” He had built some businesses, sold some businesses, he started a company that invests in different organizations and helps them get going, and so, he’s invested in quite a few different companies. And more recently, for the state of Utah, he ran for governor. And of course, COVID hit and that throws a big wrench in everything. And I’ve had the chance to visit with him several times. He came and spoke to our mastermind group of coaching clients and we’ve had the chance of him to visit our office in different places. And I’ve been so impressed with Jeff both as a person with his vision, and just his desire to do good and impact others. So, with that being said, there’s the high-level. Jeff, if you don’t mind, just take a couple of minutes and give our listeners a little background on who you are. 


Jeff Burningham: Well, I appreciate that, Rob! Thanks! You’ve been too kind. I’m a dad. Like a lot of people out there, I have four lovely children, ages 19 to 9, so we have three boys and a girl. So, I’m a dad, number one, and a husband. I’m the oldest of six kids, I grew up in Spokane, Washington. I’ve always been an entrepreneur at heart. In fact, I remember one day during the summer – I think I was 12 or 13 years old – there was a knock on our door and it was a door-to-door salesman. My mom answered the door – I remember kind of overhearing the conversation a little bit – and it was someone trying to sell a carpet cleaner. My mom said, “Thanks, but no thanks.” And I said, “Wait, Mom, let’s buy this carpet cleaner and I’ll start cleaning – we lived across from our elementary school – so I’ll start cleaning the elementary school, preschool, dentist’s, doctor’s carpets.” I love basketball, I grew up playing basketball and was starting to go to tournaments at that time – travel tournaments and things like that – and being the oldest of six kids, that was hard to do. So, I’ve convinced my mom to buy the carpet cleaning business and I started cleaning carpets as a 13-year-old. So I’ve always been a self-starting entrepreneur, that’s just kind of in my DNA and nature and background. And like you said, I started a tech company as an undergrad at BYU when I was 25 or 26 years old, sold that to a NASDAQ listed company, and then I have started several other companies, as you said. And have really enjoyed being an investor here in Utah, especially in the early stage. I think that I’ve invested in nearly 100 startups here along the Wasatch Front or in the Silicon Slopes and backing those great entrepreneurs that have created thousands and thousands of jobs, has been really cool. And then, I ran for governor – so, I lost my mind and went into politics. So anyway, yeah, that’s my background. I really do think of myself first and foremost, as a dad and a family guy, but I’m an entrepreneur, an investor, a former athlete, and also tried to do quite a bit of philanthropy as well. So that’s what I’m up to. 


Rob Shallenberger: Which is why I wanted to have you on the show, Jeff. I mean, like I said, I’ve watched you and I’ve seen the impact you’ve had on the world. So, I really want to touch on three areas, because each of us listening has different experiences we’ve learned in life. Each of us, by the end of our life, could write a book or give a discourse of our lessons learned through life. And so, I really want to talk about your lessons learned in three different areas. Number one, as an entrepreneur. What are some lessons that you’ve learned through your life as an entrepreneur, that were impactful to you, that were important? Number two, as a governor – or not as governor, but in that gubernatorial race that you’re in – what lessons did you learn? What was that experience like, as you went through that – running for governor? Number three is just general life lessons learned. What have you learned along the way? What’s helped you, what hasn’t, whether it’s with your family, personally, whatever? So, I’d really like to touch on those three areas, primarily, just because I know you have a wealth of experience and background. So maybe starting with the entrepreneur side of things, Jeff. What are some of your greatest lessons learned along the way as you’ve built your own businesses, you’ve invested in others? What are some of the most important things that you’ve seen that will help make a business or an entrepreneur or a team successful? 


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, that’s a great question, and it’s not an easy one to answer because there’s a lot of keys and important ideas and thoughts. Let me share a couple with you. The first overarching thought that I have is that almost always, the best teams win. So, your job as an entrepreneur or as a CEO, or a founder, is to not only have a good business plan to lead, to share the vision, etc., but it’s really to rally the very best team that you can around you. Because no one wins alone, and no one really loses alone, either. I think that life and certainly business is a team sport. And so, the best teams almost always win. So, I tell my entrepreneurs that their biggest job – or founders or CEOs – your biggest job is to recruit the very best people that you possibly can. That’s your number one job, is to lay out a compelling enough vision that you can rally and recruit and hire some of the best and brightest. So, it’s all about people, it’s all about the team. And like I said, more often than not the best teams win. And so, it’s about recruiting and finding the best team. That’s the first idea that comes to me.  


Jeff Burningham: Second – this is a little more nuanced, and maybe a little different – but there is an urgency. In entrepreneurship, I like urgent leaders, and what I mean by that are leaders that are about getting things done, they do not wait for things to happen, they do not overanalyze things, they make things happen. They’re urgent in their leadership. And that can sometimes, when you’re being led like that can be hard, it can be stressful, it can be frustrating or grading at times. But it’s really those urgent leaders in the early days that can get creative and amazing things off the ground. And you need that urgency. I’ve often, when I’ve talked to entrepreneurs, spoken about kind of when you’re a founder, you’re like pushing a rock up the hill, and if you’re ever not pushing, it’s kind of pushing back on you. Everything is going against you in the early stage of entrepreneurship and so, I found that leaders that are urgent, especially in the early days get things done. It’s funny, Rob, it’s kind of the opposite of government. I mean, like, literally the polar opposite of government. It’s the urgent entrepreneur that gets things done, and the government does not function like that, as you know and as we all observe and see. That’s interesting, I guess, kind of takeaway.  


Jeff Burningham: I’m biased to product CEOs, meaning that I have come to invest in CEOs that understand their product, and they’ve had a role in building it. I also don’t like investing in solo founders. This is very hard to do, and it’s very hard to do it alone. So, kind of going back to my first thought, it’s really important to me to invest in at least a partnership or a couple of entrepreneurs that are going for something together. Again, business is a team sport, you don’t do anything alone. So, to me, it’s all about the team. That’s the biggest kind of idea that sticks out to me. 


Rob Shallenberger: So, here’s a quick question for you. And I love what you just said about partnerships. I’m talking with a lady right now about an incredible business that she’s building. And there’s so much value in a partnership isn’t there? But actually, let’s just talk about that for a second. Why? You just said you don’t like the solopreneur versus the partnership, Why? What’s the difference that you see there? 


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, and I’m speaking from a venture capital perspective or from an investing perspective. It’s just so hard to do it on your own. It’s an echo chamber, and no person has all the strengths that they need. Every person has a unique basket of strengths and a unique basket of weaknesses. And the best partnerships, in my opinion, are like this. Number one, you partner with someone that has the same baseline ethics as you. So, you’ve got to agree on the baseline ethics, you’ve got to see the world in a somewhat similar way in terms of ethics and honesty and integrity, etc. I think that that’s really important. But then secondly, you need to be really self-aware, you need to understand your own personal strengths and weaknesses, and you need to partner with someone that can buttress your weaknesses – where one plus one equals three instead of two, where the whole is better than the sum of the parts. And that’s where the magic really is. When you partner with someone that has the same kind of baseline ethics as you do, that sees the world in a way that you can agree with, which you’re going to build a business in a certain way with integrity, etc., but then this is a person that’s very different than you, they have a different skill set, they complement your weaknesses. And again, I think that’s where kind of the magic starts is when you have two opposites in terms of skill set that can come together on a shared vision, and row. And like I said, in this kind of example, the two partners, one plus one equals three instead of two. That’s, the kind of partnership that I look for when I’m starting a business – which I’ve started a lot – and/or when I’m investing in an up-and-coming company, that’s certainly something that I look for as well. 


Rob Shallenberger: Yeah, that’s interesting. Thanks for sharing that, Jeff. Here’s one more question before we move on to your governor race experience, and then your life experience. You mentioned people – and you kind of already touched on this – when you look for people, you know, the right people, you said, it’s all about the people, which I 100% agree with you. This is what we’re all about in our company, is training the people. You mentioned that getting things done is one of the key things that you look for. Is there anything else that you look for in people, in general? Say you’re going to hire someone or bring them onto the team. What are you looking for in people? 


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, it’s interesting. The founder or CEO is maybe a different personality than someone that you’re just kind of looking to hire or bring on the team. In a founder, like I said, I like urgent founders, there is an urgency to entrepreneurship, there’s a pace that I think really serves a startup well, in the early days. By the way, that pace, may not be such a service when the business has scaled up and grown, but in the early days, it really is. Secondly, like I said, I like a CEO or a founder who understands the product or has had a hand in kind of building the product. So, certainly, those are two things kind of in a startup scenario.  


Jeff Burningham: In terms of just hiring in general, it’s interesting, there’s a lot of research around hiring, and around how people make judgments. And we are poor judges sometimes of what we need, or who might be best for a position. So, I always like to actually talk to them. When I interview, I will say that a lot of my interviews are around the soft skills, they’re around people skills, communication, how you handle stress, how you deal with hard times, how resilient are you? Are you able to bounce back from failure? Because we all, really, you could say that life is just kind of bouncing from one failure or learning experience to another. So, how do you respond to that is something that I always try to ferret out. And I try to get to the root of a person. One of the favorite questions that I ask is, if you’re with your mom or your dad, how would they describe you, Rob? Pick three words. How would they describe you? And I like that because it gets to the heart of maybe who a person is. And if I understand what I’m looking for, if I really understand who this person is at their heart or in the root of who they are, I think it’s helpful to understand that in terms of hiring and different needs that you might be getting from such a question. So that’s a question that I think is interesting, I like to ask, and it’s helpful. How would your spouse, your significant other, whoever knows you best – your brother, your mom, your dad – if they had three words to describe Rob Shallenberger, how would they describe you? By the way, Rob, how would they describe you? What are the three words that describe you? What is the root of who you are? I’m curious. 


Rob Shallenberger: You know, it’s funny, because, as you asked that question, I was already thinking about the answer in my mind, thinking, what would they say? And I think they would probably say, focused, driven, and results-oriented. 


Jeff Burningham: That’s cool. Yeah, very good. See, that gives me a good sense of who you are. You’re very focused, and you’re going to be driven for results, which I’m a very similar person. And sometimes those types of people can butt heads. And so, it’s good to understand kind of what’s at the root or the heart of someone, I think. And anyway, there’s some thoughts or ideas from when I’m hiring, but it’s not easy. While life is and startups all are, it is all about people. It is not easy. I’ve had bad partners, I’ve had bad hires that have not – it’s been my fault – I have not hired the right person, I have not put this person in a place to succeed. It was my bad judgment, that kind of put us in a bad spot. But life’s about learning we kind of bump from one failure or one learning experience to another. And I think it’s about how we react to those, how we get better from those, and that’s a key important thing to try to understand, I think, especially in the early stages. 


Rob Shallenberger: Well, I totally agree with you, Jeff. I mean, number one, we’ve all hired the wrong person, or had them in the wrong seat on the bus, if you will, at some point. We’ve all done that. And number two, I love what you said, life is about bouncing from failure to failure, and learning lessons along the way. And that’s kind of why we’re here, right? There’s only one perfect person and that’s definitely not us.  


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, we’re learning. 


Rob Shallenberger: Yeah, that’s the whole point of being here, in mortality, right? So, let’s go to the governor’s side of things. You entered this governor race – and I’ve got to say, first of all, for anybody to throw their hat in the public ring like this, man, number one, there’s got to be a strong personal vision to do that. And number two, getting in that arena, that’s not an easy place to be, because you’re gonna get stuff from both sides. And I don’t wanna say it’s a no-win scenario, but there’s so much going on out there that no matter what you do, there’s gonna be people that come after you from both sides. And so, I’m just being curious, you got your hand in that, you were in it, you went throughout the entire state of Utah, you met so many people along the way. What were some of your lessons learned from that experience? I mean, what was the experience like, in general? 


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, it was a really interesting experience. I felt like I needed some disruption, just personally. Like, I needed to change things up. I’d been an entrepreneur since my undergrad days, like I said, so for about the last 20 years, the first 20 years of my career, and I felt like I needed to disrupt myself a little bit and do something totally different. And running for governor was different, and it was honestly the hardest thing I’ve ever done. It’s like a startup in a lot of ways just because you’re starting with nothing, you’re creating a vision and a mission, you’re getting a team together. So, there are some differences, though. It is very public, like you said. Especially in the early days of a startup, there are not people gunning for you or trying to take you down. And that’s not necessarily the case in politics – kind of right from the beginning, especially when you’re viewed as a potential threat or someone from the outside, there are a lot of roadblocks that are put in your way.  


Jeff Burningham: So anyway, the biggest thing I learned though – and I did, I traveled all across the state of Utah, and I met thousands and 10s of thousands of great people, and that is the biggest learning. I can’t wait, Rob, for November 5th. The presidential elections are on November 4th, right? I’m excited about November 5th, because November 5th is when we get back to just… The secret sauce in the state of Utah is the people. The secret sauce in the recipe of success in the United States or in the world, it’s all about the people. And so, it’s not really about our government leaders, although those leaders are important and play a big role. It’s about the people. And so, as I got out across every county in Utah, and as I met people, I was just inspired, I was just moved and it really led me. I started a podcast a month or so ago, it’s called ‘Us’, and it’s all about the people that I met, running for governor. And it’s trying to just share inspiring stories about people, and the exciting things that they’re doing. So that’s the number one thing, it is about the people. And I don’t believe that the end of the world is coming, no matter who’s elected on November 4th. I believe that the people in the United States of America are the strength and the secret sauce, and it’s really about strong families and about the people. So that’s the number one lesson.  


Jeff Burningham: Secondly, it’s something that I didn’t appreciate, Rob, before I ran for governor – there’s a huge industry around government that was unfamiliar to me. Again, I’m an entrepreneur coming from the private sector, my network is other entrepreneurs and other business leaders, in the state and around the world. I didn’t understand this big government infrastructure, like, this industry that was created around the government. And so, I found myself in a new playing field, and it was not easy, in a short period of time to discern good players from bad players, people that had your best interests at heart and maybe those who did not. And so, that was hard. That was really hard to come in, totally fresh and new. I’ve been involved in politics for a couple of decades here in Utah, just tangentially, as a precinct chair. And then I’ve raised quite a bit of money for other candidates, but I had never run for office. So, to run for the biggest position in our state, and to be put into a new environment, and in kind of a whole new network, that was something that I didn’t appreciate and understand and was harder than maybe I expected it to be.  


Jeff Burningham: What else to that? Number three, you’ve got to have thick skin. Social media can be an ugly place and you’ve got to have thick skin. I spoke to kind of all of the politicians in the state of Utah before I ran, but I spoke to Mitt Romney and Mitt said, “Jeff, I think you’d be great, it’d be cool, but you have young kids at home. I don’t know if I would do this.” And I said, “Mitt, when you first ran for governor of Massachusetts, didn’t you have kids at home?” And he was like, “Yeah, but they were older anyways.” I have a 9-year-old, a 12-year-old, and a 16-year-old at home, and so that was not easy to do at all.  


Jeff Burningham: And then, maybe the last thing, it’s interesting, we think of our political leaders and we say those words, like, ‘political leaders’. But one of the things that I realized and learned – and it’s a little disheartening, but it makes sense – is that a lot of politics and a lot of government is often about what I would kind of call ‘fake leadership’. It’s really not about leadership. A lot of politicians kind of see the way that the people are going or where people are going, and then that’s where they go. So, when things are going great, they’re at the head of the parade, kind of saying, “Here I am, I’ve been here all along, I’m making good things.” When things do not go well, it’s kind of the opposite; they are not there, they’re nowhere to be found. And so, really, politics is part leadership and it’s part the art of being there when good news is happening and not being there when bad news is happening. I mean, it’s really interesting. It’s not leadership in the same way that I’ve experienced it in startups or in service organizations or other things. So, it’s three or four things, but there’s so much, of course, that I learned. 


Rob Shallenberger: Those are great, Jeff. And I’ll just give you one example. So, you said this earlier and I caught on to it. I don’t know if anyone else listening, did. We were talking about hiring and you said, “It was my fault. It was my fault.” And how often do we hear those words from the leadership in government? It was my fault, I take responsibility for that. Those are non-existent words almost. It’s always him or her or them, so that’s a great point. So, here’s what we’re going to do: we’ve got about five minutes left here. Now looking at your personal life, you’ve been a dad, you’ve gone through all of these different things, just personally, what are one or two of the most impactful lessons learned that you could share with us? Along the way, you said, “Look, if I could go back to the 20-year-old version of myself, I would share some of these lessons learned. 


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, let me share. Three come to mind, I’ll be quick, one minute for each. Number one, in my experience – think about all the fears that you’ve ever had, Rob – and I’d invite our listeners to think about all the fears that you’ve ever had. I’m saying from like, when growing up, there was a monster under my bed, to whatever your fear is now. How many of those fears have really come true? My experience as a 43-year-old guy is that fear can sometimes play a protective role and sometimes play a good role. But in my opinion, in my life, fear almost always plays a destructive role in life. So, too often, we let concern for a past that we can’t change or fear of an unknown future that none of us controls, affect our decisions in the ever-present now. I encourage people that I talk to, to make decisions not out of fear, but out of faith and out of love and make your best decision now and go with it. I think that fear plays a destructive role in our world and in most of our individual lives. So that’d be one.  


Rob Shallenberger: That’s a great comment, by the way.  


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, and these, obviously, I think these lessons are also top of mind right now based on what’s going on in our world with COVID-19. And, of course, the terrible things that we’re seeing here in the United States, with violence – unneeded violence – and the Black Lives Matter movement, etc. So, the second thing is, I’ve traveled to, I don’t know, over 50 countries, 50 something countries, I’ve lived in a couple of other countries. My observation through my life so far is that no matter our differences – and we are all unique, we’re all different – but no matter our religion, our ethnicity, our race, our sexual orientation, our net worth, no matter the differences in all those things, I think that we are all, all of us, I’m saying in all the world, we are all a lot more alike than we are different. Now, there are loud voices, in government, in media, in entertainment, etc. that tried to drive wedges in between us. And there are legitimate concerns in between us, and there are legitimate differences. I am not saying that there aren’t differences and that those should not be spoken about and dealt with, at all. But what I am saying is, we should remember as we’re going through the hardest times in our lives, that we all are a lot more alike than we are different. We all want similar things, we want to love, we want to be loved, we want success in our own way, we want to be at peace, we want to be good people. I believe that 99.3% or thereabouts, maybe more of us, are good people, honestly just trying our best. We’re all flawed, we all make mistakes, but I really believe that we’re all trying our best.  


Jeff Burningham: And then the last quick lesson number three that kind of dovetails into all of this is, taking that into account we live in a world of massive comparison. It doesn’t matter if you’re watching TV, if you’re on social media, it’s all about comparing ourselves to others. And I believe that comparison is the thief of joy. When we compare ourselves to others, not only does it hurt us, but it hurts others as well. So, one thing that I’ve been thinking a lot about in the last couple of years is compassion over comparison. And because everyone is struggling with something, and because we all are a lot more alike than we are different, we need to exercise compassion in our daily lives. We need to have compassion for people of all challenges and all different things because we all need compassion. When is the last time Rob, that someone – and I guess I could ask myself this as a public figure – Jeff, when is the last time someone gave you the benefit of the doubt? As a public figure when I was running for governor or whatever. And that just does not happen anymore, Rob. We are constantly second-guessing each other’s motives, we’re constantly comparing ourselves to others and it’s destructive. And I would encourage your listeners and everyone in the world to exercise compassion, spend more time having empathy for others, and less time comparing yourself to others in your life to others. 


Rob Shallenberger: Those three tips just made this whole podcast worth it 10x.  


Jeff Burningham: I hope so. 


Rob Shallenberger: I mean, in other words, so many good lessons learned across the board, but those two, in particular, Jeff – two of those three – really resonated with me and what I’ve been seeing personally, with my family, friends, and a lot of people. Fear is such a powerful motivator. And I agree that we’ve all been the victim of our fears. And I love what you said there with compassion over comparison. In fact, to that point, I took a six-week social media break. Now, I’ve been on Facebook periodically to share a couple of things like a podcast here and there. But I’ve really taken a six-week break, and subconsciously, it’s interesting, because no matter what on Facebook – or name the social media site – it’s so easy for our subconscious to compare in different aspects of our life. Maybe it’s finances, maybe it’s family, “Look at the family that person has. Oh, if I had that. Or look at how they travel.” So, here’s my different view: I just got back on social media this morning, I said, “I’m getting back on social media for one reason, and that is to post uplifting, motivational things and that’s it.” So, this morning, in my first post back, I just shared something from Oprah Winfrey. And she said, “Be thankful for what you have, and you’ll end up having more. If you concentrate on what you don’t have, you will never ever have enough.” And it just seems like it’s so easy to do this in our world where there’s this hyper-competitive environment and culture. And so, those are just two things that stood out to me that really are spot on from what we’re seeing in the world. So, first of all, Jeff, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your thoughts and your wisdom, your experience. And one more time for all our listeners, I know you have your podcast that you’re just barely starting. What’s it called again, and how do they find that? 


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, it’s called “Us: The Extraordinary Ordinary.” So, I kind of talk about how all of us are extraordinary in our own ways, but we’re just ordinary people. And so, yeah, the podcast is called “Us”. It’s on any platform. Please, I would love you to take a listen. I have the Huntsman’s on from here in Utah a couple of weeks ago, I’ve had a band on. Just interesting people doing cool things that are sharing light in the world. It’s all about the stories, about us, about people doing the very best they can and I would love your listeners to check it out and give it a rating and review. That’d be great. 


Rob Shallenberger: That’d be great. I hope that everyone listening can do that. So, Jeff Burningham’s podcast. Jeff, thanks so much for being on the show. Any parting comments that you want to share? 


Jeff Burningham: Now, if I could ask, Rob, what was the effect of being off for six weeks? How did you feel? What did you think? 


Rob Shallenberger: It was amazing! And it’s not easy to do. The other thing that I’ll say, ‘try’ is a weak word. Anytime we use the word ‘try’, that’s a weak word. “I’ll try and do that.” I tried to stay off of the mainstream media as well, but I found myself going back to Fox News and other places, and that one was actually harder for me. But if I could use one word, Jeff, it would be this word, ‘liberating’. And I would consider myself to be very blessed – I’ve been blessed with a great family, we have a great place, we have a couple of horses that we ride and we live in a beautiful area. But, back to your comment and Oprah Winfrey’s, there’s this subconscious – and I just feel like it’s a subconscious comparison, it’s not done intentionally – but when we are spending an hour of our day on any type of social media, there is this subconscious comparison that happens. Here’s one more. Now you’re reversing this, now it’s all about me. There’s this acronym that we use G.I.G.O. And oftentimes we say, ‘garbage in, garbage out’ and I believe that’s exactly true. What we put in is what we can expect to get out. If we put garbage in, the emotions, our thoughts coming out will also be like that. If we flip that around and say ‘greatness in, greatness out’, if we put greatness in, then we can, in turn, expect greatness out in our thoughts, in our emotions, and the way we treat ourselves and others. And there is so much on social media that would fit the first one, more – garbage in garbage out. That’s why I felt like it was liberating. I was taking a lot of that vitriol that’s out there, and taking it out of my life. And so, it really was liberating. And that’s why as I come back to it, I’m coming back very intentional about what I’m going to do. I’m not surfing through it. Five minutes max a day on it, and my intent is just to bring uplifting and positive comments, quotes, insights, and thoughts, and that’s it. So, I don’t know if that answered your question. 


Jeff Burningham: Yeah, that’s awesome. Yeah, as you know, I announced a month or two ago that I’m looking at starting a new media company and the whole point of the media company, it’s not even really a for-profit venture. It’s really just to put good content into the world. It’s just to get some good stuff out there. And people can choose to consume it or not, it’s up to them. And my podcast is kind of the first foray into that, although I’ve started writing. I’ll write a book here in the next six months, and we’ll be releasing that. So, there is a lot of garbage out there, let’s just make sure there’s a lot of greatness or good out there. Rob, whatever you’re doing in the world just make sure that is good. Congratulations, and thanks for being a good friend. 


Rob Shallenberger: Well, thank you, Jeff! And thanks for coming on the podcast and we appreciate it and hope everyone will take into account this – share it with some other people who are important to you. And let’s, again, spread the word – greatness in, greatness out. So, thanks, Jeff. And we hope all our listeners have a wonderful day and a great week! 

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