Episode Summary
Throughout our conversation, we delve into Alisa’s personal story and why she decided to help people find their way into healthy and lasting relationships. We talked about the three red flags all of us should be aware of when we meet someone new, how to train ourselves to detect those red flags in a short time, and the ESP and the ARE model. We also dive into the difference between being a master or a disaster communicator, how to avoid falling into our ego’s traps, and preventing unnecessary arguments with our spouses.
Steve Shallenberger: Welcome to all of our Becoming Your Best podcast listeners wherever you may be in the world today. This is your host, Steve Shallenberger. And we have an amazing guest with us today. Welcome, Alisa Goodwin Snell.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: Hello, everyone. So glad to be joining you.
Steve Shallenberger: Oh, this will be fun. Now, some of our listeners know that my wife of 46 years passed away at the end of 2020 from an unexpected and protracted illness. And once I decided to start dating, I discovered a far more complicated dating world than what I remembered when I was 23 years old. At this end of the spectrum, you’re dealing with divorcees, widows, never-marrieds with many different circumstances, including where people live, their finances, their hurt, their children and grandchildren, just to mention a few. So, it’s a new world. And there are magnificent people, men and women out there that have had these experiences. To say the least, I felt out of place and not sure about what I was really walking into, and I was introduced to Alisa. And I can just say, aside from being amazing, she is a talented and skilled professional that has been an immense help with her course materials and coaching. So, I’ve just been so impressed with her, I thought you might enjoy and benefit from some of her insights. And if not you, then perhaps someone that you know and love.
Steve Shallenberger: So, before we get started, I’d like to tell you a little bit more about Alisa. She is acclaimed to be – drumroll – the nation’s number one dating and relationship strategist and coach. All right, go Alisa! She has more than 25 years of experience as a marriage and family therapist, and dating and relationship strategist. She has a master’s degree and much practical experience that has helped thousands of people to successfully find their way to a fulfilling, productive, and caring relationship, whether that’s in an existing marriage or whether you’re finding a new relationship. Tell us about your background, Alisa, including any turning points in your life that have really led you to where you’re at today.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: Well, thank you. I’ll try to keep this brief. My parents didn’t have an awesome marriage. So, it was kind of this evolution in my Bachelor’s when I became so excited about marriage and family therapy. So, I started off as a marriage and family therapist. I actually got my degree by the age of 24. So, I was a marriage and family therapist. I got married at 25 and I had my son at 27. And then, sadly, I went through a divorce at 28. So, the marriage with my former spouse was pretty toxic and it was a blessing to get divorced. So, I realized at that point, it was infinitely better to be happily single than miserably married. But here I was still doing marriage counseling, I really didn’t want to get into another difficult, bad or toxic situation. So, that began my passion for safety; how do you know that you’re making a good choice? And especially in working with couples where there was infidelity, drug and alcohol addiction, sexual addictions, pornography addictions, toxic personalities, those personality disorders, lying, manipulation. And then there were those couples, it was just a privilege to see how they transformed their lives. So, there were those who got better and those who there wasn’t a lot of progress or responsibility on one or both parties. So, I put those pieces together for my personal life, I realized that there were three things that were the big red flags or warning signs that if I could identify those early in the dating process, I could have a significantly better outcome. So, what we’re looking for, for better outcomes, is empathy, self-control, and personal responsibility. And to be able to identify those in, hopefully, three days or less to get so good at recognizing what does it look like when somebody is actively showing and demonstrating both empathy in their behaviors and empathy when interacting with me – so, in their history – and then how do you see when someone’s actively taking personal responsibility? And how do you piece together their relative self-control or lack thereof? That gave me the hope to believe that I could remarry. I did remarry four years after my divorce. I’ve been married for 20 years now. We have a beautiful adopted daughter. We struggled with infertility in that journey, but part of our struggle with infertility is why I wrote books for singles. So, I did marriage and family therapy for 17 years. Seven of those years, I was simultaneously doing dating and relationship strategies and books and creating my Lasting Love Academy. For the last 10 years, I only did dating and relationship strategies. So, I’ve helped thousands of singles and couples, and I feel incredibly privileged to do what I do. It’s an amazing career to help people with conflict resolution, communication, dating, relationships. And this is really the fun side of things because I’m helping people with healthy relationships, not trying to just fix these terribly tragic relationships like I did in marriage counseling. So, that’s my brief history and journey and how I got into this.
Steve Shallenberger: Well, I love the fact that you’ve gone through experiences that help you relate. Nice going. I mean, it’s real life and everyday stuff, and none of us are necessarily spared from some of these challenges. Now, you said something that caught my attention, and we have so much to talk about here; you talked about ESP – empathy, self-control…
Alisa Goodwin Snell: And personal responsibility.
Steve Shallenberger: And personal responsibility. And that you try to help teach people to spot whether it’s there or not within three weeks. What the heck! How do you do that?
Alisa Goodwin Snell: It’s really in their stories. It’s in the things that they do, the way that they interact with you. So, if you know what the red flags look like, then it’s important that you learn to trust your gut to pay attention to it. But one of the difficulties whether it’s a marital relationship, a family relationship, your children’s relationship, or dating; one of the difficulties is that we don’t always communicate. And so I don’t want people to make judgments when the other person doesn’t even know they’re being tested. So, it’s really important that you express a feeling, a need, and opinion, or say no, and see how the other person responds. Anyone can have a moment of insensitivity or a lack of awareness of how something might have affected that person because you don’t know their whole story and history. But if they tell you how it felt for them, and your response and reaction now shows in real-time whether or not you can empathize, you can show concern, care, you can apologize, take that responsibility. Just simply saying, “Oh, I had no idea that made you feel that way. Thank you for telling me. What would work better for you next time?” That shows self-control, it shows responsibility, it shows empathy. So, I really want people to judge in a fair way by giving people the best chance for success. This is real life, real people, and real love, and I want you to have the skills for being able to really do real life with a real person and help you succeed at real love, no matter what relationship it is.
Steve Shallenberger: Alisa has helped me with thinking about that and using that as a judge. And there’s also something about developing a secure relationship, and how to tell whether you are creating a secure relationship or not. There’s an acronym called ARE. So, these are two really primary acronyms. Do you mind talking about the ARE for a moment? So, I really liked the ESP, which is empathy, self-control, and?
Alisa Goodwin Snell: Personal responsibility.
Steve Shallenberger: Taking personal responsibility and looking at that and seeing if you’re doing it yourself, too; taking responsibility, to be part of solutions. Tell us about ARE.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: These are really important for a more secure, life-long positive outcome. ARE is the ability to create a secure attachment. And in order to have a secure attachment, both parties need to be available to each other – A; they need to respond to each other – R; and they need to be emotionally engaged. So, there’s a book by Sue Johnson called Hold Me Tight. And it’s basically about attachment theory and how you put that in application in couples’ work, and how to try to help couples to be more securely attached. So, in my coaching, I would teach clients the difference between anxious attachment and avoidant attachment, and how we get in this terrible dance of pushing each other away and pulling each other, and staying distant. It’s a cat and mouse game, unfortunately, and it’s very painful for the one who has an anxious attachment, and it’s very confusing to the one who has an avoidant attachment because they don’t know why they just shut down and they disconnect and they walk away. It doesn’t mean they don’t care about their relationship, it just means they are triggered in a way that makes them disconnect or withdraw. And if we can stop that terrible toxic dance and create a secure attachment instead, most people want that. So, oftentimes, we villainize the person who’s more avoiding, who withdraws; I don’t want to do that. I want people to feel empowered. Well, what does a secure attachment look like? How do we help you to do that? And that’s by choosing to be more available, more responsive, more emotionally engaged, and for both parties to understand what triggers them to act clingy, or triggers them to withdraw, or triggers them to reject or criticize, or triggers them to shut down and disconnect. We break that down, we start to see that people do succeed. I really just want to set people up for success. And oftentimes, unfortunately, we criticize what we don’t understand because it’s easier to blame someone else than to sit patiently and try to find solutions.
Steve Shallenberger: Well, I want you to know, Alisa, these have been a real help for me, as I’ve been working on developing a relationship, they’ve been good. So, I’m glad that we have a transcript of our audio show because people can go in a little deeper and study this and have it reinforced. So, I love it – ESP and ARE, that’s Available, Responsive, and Emotionally-engaged. That’s the sign you’re looking for as you work together.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: Yes. And it’s the way that we try to help each other to get on board and to meet each other in the middle. So, for a lot of the people who are more avoidant, I teach a five-stage process where we try to have skills for every stage. So, if you’re dating, there are different stages than when you’re in a relationship. But I want to gear you up with skills for every stage. And part of the skills for creating a secure attachment is being able to communicate and take that pressure off and understand your partner in a way that helps them to be able to communicate as well. So, communication, we’ve got the early ESP, and then we’re starting to build because early on, we want to make sure that you and the other person are showing that empathy, self-control, and personal responsibility. But then eventually, we’ve got to actually create a secure attachment, and that gets more tricky because of that anxious and avoidant, pushing and pulling, and withdrawing, disengaging, shutting down, believing that “Maybe I just don’t feel that I think I should feel, so maybe I’ll just find it with someone else.” That’s where I really want people to feel empowered on how to have conversations, communicate, and engage. And when you get through a problem, that’s so bonding when you get to the other side of a problem. And a big part of that is conflict. So, when people get in conflict, being able to manage it, I refer to this as the “masters versus the disasters.” What do you need to do to be a master at communication? And how do you avoid being the disaster? So, if we have time, I’d like us to dive into the “masters versus disasters” in conflict because I’m sure everyone who’s listening to this would prefer to know what they’re doing wrong and how to turn it around.
Steve Shallenberger: I mean, I want to talk about this one. This is a good one for everybody in any place in the world, whether you’re married, whether you’re dating, or whether it’s in a business setting; are you going to be a disaster in communication or a master? So, tell us what the difference is and help us understand it. What can we do to be good at being masters?
Alisa Goodwin Snell: Absolutely. And for those of you who want to learn more if this is coming pretty quick, you might feel like there are a lot of little hints or things that you want to learn more, you can go to my website, lastingloveacademy.com. So, just visit lastingloveacademy.com, we’re going to give you everything you need. I know we’re overwhelming you. So, what we’re going to do is let’s focus on the masters versus disasters. This is where it gets really fun because we can all relate to these stories. So, I’m going to give a couple of scenarios. And I realize that these scenarios might be too simplistic, but they’re a really easy learning tool. So, imagine it being at work or family or any other relationship. I want to roleplay this with you a little bit as well, Steve. So, if you were to come home and I were to say to you, “You didn’t take the trash out like you said you would.” Would that be a criticism, a comment, a complaint? Or would I be showing contempt? Would I be attacking you? So, again, the phrase is, “You didn’t take the trash out like you said you would.” Those who are listening, pay attention to these words, I want to know how you’re reacting to this because the way you react to this is going to change the rest of the conversation. And first, we need to know am I criticizing? Am I just making a complaint? Am I making a comment? Or am I attacking you or what’s called contempt? What do you think, Steve? “You didn’t take the trash out like you said you would.”
Steve Shallenberger: I guess it would depend a little bit upon the trust levels that you and I had and what I felt from you. So, I could just see it as a comment.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: If you felt safe with me, you felt like I’m empathetic with you normally, I typically respond to your needs, we solve problems; you would just see it as a comment.
Steve Shallenberger: Yeah, no problem. On the other hand, if things are on edge and feelings are frayed, I might really get ticked off, I might just say, “There’s one more thing, man, just pick it away.”
Alisa Goodwin Snell: “I can’t make her happy. No matter what I do, it’s not enough.” It could feel like someone at work, it could be your boss, “You didn’t get that project done on time.” Now, there are a couple of ways we could soften this to make sure the delivery is better. So, a soft startup is a huge part of success with conflict resolution. So, a soft startup is usually an I-statement. So, if we simply say, “I noticed that you didn’t take the trash out like I thought you said you would do.” That softens it just enough. It doesn’t make it an accusation as much. Usually, more productive conversations always start with an I-statement. Now, in a safe and secure relationship, I could just get right to the facts, in a relationship with somebody who likes to just cut to the quick. So, there are those people who’re very validating, there are those people who are more conflict-avoidant, and then there are those people who really like more of a passionate, volatile discussion – not violent, not attacking, but they’re more intense, they’re more volatile. So, I could say, “You didn’t take the trash out like you said you would.” And somebody who likes a volatile approach would say, “I didn’t say that.” And I might be like, “Yeah, when you left the house, you said you would take out the trash when you got back. And it’s been several hours, it hasn’t been out yet.” And they’re like, “Well, first off, I don’t agree with that, but it’s not that big a deal. I’ll take it out right now.” And we’re in and out of that issue so quick. That’s the volatile style. They’re really fast and efficient.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: At work sometimes, that’s what someone wants. A boss wants to just be able to get in and out on the topic, and prove the rightness of their perspective, and just make it work. But if I need validation, and my boss says to me, “You didn’t take the trash out like you said you would.” Or I’m more conflict-avoidant and my boss says that, I might feel a lot more distress and misery in this relationship because we’re using different conflict styles. And they don’t know what conflict style I need and vice versa. So, in whatever relationship, if you can talk about what’s your preferred conflict style, do you prefer peace at any cost? So, that’s more of a conflict-avoidant style. And actually, in my family, growing up, conflict-avoidant, and being a peacemaker was definitely the role I played in my family. And it was the role I started to play very quickly in my marriage with my first husband in my 20s. Even though I had been trained as a marriage and family therapist, I valued and appreciated the validating role. If I got resistance, my peacemaking nature kicked in and I tended to just push my needs aside and be conflict avoided. There’s a price for that that comes later. But still, nonetheless, you need to know, “Do I tend to be more conflict-avoidant? Do I tend to be more validating?” The validating style is focused on seeking first to understand and be understood. The volatile style is focused more on, “Hey, let’s just be efficient, let’s get right to the problem. Let’s just prove the rightness of our perspectives.” So, if you are in a relationship, or you’re working and you have employees, or you’re working with other people and colleagues; if you know validating is something that’s their style, make sure you start off with “I noticed.” “I thought.” “It was my understanding that.” And you’re going to find that you can put the next statement with it to jump right into the thing that you need to get resolved and it’s going to be received much easier.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: Let’s go back to that initial statement: “You didn’t take the trash out like you said you would.” That’s a perfect description of a volatile conversation style, that is actually a comment. It is not a complaint. It’s not personal. It’s just a statement of what I believe is a fact. So, therefore, it’s a comment. Two different responses: one is I can be offended, the other is you can be like, “Oh yeah, you’re right, I forgot to take out the trash.” But my saying “You didn’t take out the trash” is actually not an attack, it’s just a statement of fact. And if you perceive the person that makes that statement is attacking you, it’s going to change the whole outcome. Now, you’re going to get defensive. So, I worked with couples, of course, as a marriage counselor, and this was so evident in the way they would react to each other, where they would internalize the other person as attacking them, instead of seeing it as we’re just solving a problem in this way. Now, it’d be equally successful if the wife or husband had said, “Well, it works better for me when you just ask me; ‘Did you agree to take out the trash? It seemed like that was something you were willing to do.’” Communicate, go back and forth, give the other person a chance to see that you’re empathizing and you’re a partner with them. If you walk in the door and I said, “You didn’t take the trash out like you said you would.” And you throw your arms up in the air, and you’re like, “I can never please you. You’re just so demanding.” And you walk away – avoidant reaction, defensive reaction — now you’re not being available to me, you’re not being responsive to me, and you just shut down my emotional engagement. I’ve just had an attachment loss, an attachment injury because you’re pushing me away.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: So, now we’ve got to ask the question of how can I calm myself down more? When I hear my partner make a complaint, this isn’t just them being wrong, it’s the way I’m internalizing this. So, if instead, I say to myself, “She’s a good person. She cares about me. This isn’t her attacking me, this is her trying to resolve the trash issue.” Then I’m going to be more calm going into the conversation. So, this is called self-soothing. We have a responsibility to soothe our own physiological distress. But then we also have a responsibility to give and receive repair attempts. I’m shotgunning this to you guys pretty fast. There’s a skill behind every single thing I’ve just been teaching you. But although it seems overwhelming, once you get these skills, they’re lifelong skills; across the board, they’re going to work and work and work. So, if I were to emphasize the most important thing I just said, is first, how do you calm yourself down so that you’re not so flooded, and you just either get upset, and you withdraw? How do you calm yourself down? And then how do you give a repair attempt? And how do you receive a repair attempt? Because if you can calm yourself down and you can give and receive repair attempts, you’re most likely going to have a better outcome no matter whether it’s “You parked the car too close to this”, or “You didn’t get that report done.” You do those two things, and we’re already ready to win the battle. So, let’s go back to the masters versus disasters. Masters make comments and complaints; disasters criticize an attack, they do the personal attacks. So, let’s go with another example. Is it a comment, a complaint, a criticism, or a personal character attack we call those contempt statements? If I say, “I’m disappointed you didn’t take the trash out. I’m frustrated you didn’t take the trash out. I’m angry you didn’t take the trash out.” Any one of those; is that a comment, complaint, criticism, or contempt?
Steve Shallenberger: Wow. Okay, good stuff. So, just say on the disaster of communication, those four things were what again?
Alisa Goodwin Snell: The disaster part of communication is using criticism, using contempt, becoming defensive, and then stonewalling. Stonewalling is where you shut down, withdraw, run away. The problem is those are the easy defaults. We have the comments and complaints. We have to have a way to solve problems. And all of those problems have to start with a comment or a complaint. And if we give it as criticism or contempt, it’s always going to be doomed in the beginning. If we give it as a comment or complaint and you react as if it’s criticism or contempt, then we’re doomed too. So, that’s why it’s important to see what a complaint is. A complaint is just a feeling that goes with a statement of fact; “I’m sad that you didn’t take the trash out.” That is only a complaint; it is not criticism, it is not contempt. You may react to it as if it’s criticism and contempt. This is your call to say to yourself, “Wait a second, she’s not attacking me. She’s not telling me I’ve failed. I need to stay emotionally engaged and work through this complaint because all relationships need comments and complaints.” So, let’s take this and see it through for your audience so they can see how to shift this. Because if I react to this as if it’s just a complaint, I can say, “Oh, I hurt her feelings.” And then I can offer a repair attempt. But if I feel like she’s attacking me, I don’t want to say, “Oh, I hurt her feelings.” I want to defend myself. I feel like the victim. I feel like I’m innocent and she’s the perpetrator. And she feels like she’s innocent and I’m the perpetrator. And once we get into that place, empathy goes out the window.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: So, what we want to do is build more empathy. And that means what you have control over, as a listener, is whether or not you are communicating in a way that sets the conversation up for the best possible outcome, which means ask yourself this question: Is the thing I want to say to my partner, a statement of fact, simple statement of fact? Is it a statement of fact with a feeling? Then both of those are good options. Can I use I-statements to help make it go to them a little bit easier? All of those set us up for better success. Now, criticism looks like this: “You never take the trash out. You always disappoint me.” It’s a harsher tone of voice. It’s more accusing. It starts with these you-statements, but it’s definitely got the ‘always’ and the ‘never’s: “You did this years ago. And you did this last week. And you did this blah, blah, blah.” So, going too far in the past is a criticism. Another criticism is when I pile on three statements of fact together, three comments: “You didn’t take the trash out, I noticed you didn’t get the dishes done, and you left your shoes out again.” The moment I stepped into the third one, now, I’m starting to emotionally vomit on you. Let’s just take one or two and let the person feel like a success. They can pick up their shoes, they can do the dishes, why don’t let them do one or two of the other, and then I can ask later, “Oh, you didn’t take the trash out? Would you be willing to do that?”
Alisa Goodwin Snell: So, just for a fun story, we’ll end on my fun story. The next one is we have criticism; “You always. You never.” More than three complaints at one time is a criticism, going too far in the past is a criticism. Contempt – “You are lazy. You are unreliable. I can never depend on you.” You know you are using contempt when you use a “you are” statement. I forgot to give credit to the source. Talking about the masters and disasters, repair attempts; talking about the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which is the criticism, contempt, defensiveness, and stonewalling. This is based on 50 years of experience by John Gottman, a researcher, and author who has done an amazing job on communication. So, please check out John Gottman, this is his conflict resolution and communication pattern and style and research that I’m referencing.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: So, a quick story. My husband and I were a few years married, and I’m vacuuming, there’s a pile of laundry on the couch. And he is sitting just on the other side of that couch where all that laundry is and he’s playing a computer game on his computer. My son is just a few feet away from him, he’s doing his homework. And a few feet away from my son is dishes. And I’m feeling that familiar feeling of resentment because I’m vacuuming and my husband is playing a video game. So, in my mind, I am hearing my mother say, “Why are you playing a video game? Can’t you see what I’m doing? Can’t you see that I’m vacuuming? Why am I working harder than you? Can’t you see the laundry is right here? Is it all my responsibility to have to figure this out and do all of this? Our son has scouts in 10 minutes, there’s dishes to be done, how could you be playing video games? Don’t you care about me? Don’t you care about us?” I can see the litany of accusations, and assumptions, and criticism, and content just wanting to burst its way out of my mouth. And I’m sitting there thinking, “I know exactly how that will end. What could I do instead?” So, instead, I turned, I sat, and I pondered for a minute. Resentment is my cue to express my feelings and needs in a loving way, and in a way that he can succeed at. So, I know I have to fix my resentment, I’ve got to speak up. But I also know my husband is a good man and he cares about me, and he cares about my needs. He doesn’t like to be attacked, but if I just ask, he’ll probably respond in a positive way. So, I’m thinking through how to be more effective in getting what I want. So, I pause, I turn the vacuum off, and I soften my tone of voice and I said, “Baby.” And he paused and he looked at me and I’m like, “It would really mean a lot to me. Would you be willing to take Todd to scouts or vacuum? Either one of those would be great for me. It would really mean a lot to me. Would you do one of those?” Now, being a self-respecting man that he is – he’s not a jerk, just a self-respecting man – this was his response: “I don’t like either of those options.”
Alisa Goodwin Snell: What do I do now? Do I just give in? Do I get angry? Instead, I validated it, I empathized. I’m like, “I don’t like either of those options either.” Those options aren’t my burden. The laundry, the vacuuming, taking our son to scout; that’s our burden. Neither one of us should like either of those options, but they are the reality. So, I just empathize, I’m like, “I don’t like either of those options either, but would you be willing to do one of them?” And he said, “Fine. I’ll take Todd to scouts.” Super sweet. That’s great. So, I finished vacuuming, he comes home from taking Todd to scout, and he’s about to sit on the seat in front of his computer. And I said, “Hey, baby.” And he looked at me in distress and I said, “Would you mind doing the laundry or the dishes? Either one works for me.” And he gave me this exasperated look, and he’s like, “Right now?” And I’m like, “Well, no, it can be done later. But would you be willing to do either one?” He’s like, “I’ll do the laundry. I’ll do it later.” But that was an effective, somewhat volatile, not too empathetic. It wasn’t a validating style. It was a volatile style of being really targeted on the problem but with a soft startup, and I-statement, showing him what it meant to me. And he totally did the laundry before the end of the day. This does not have to blow up in people pushing each other away and being angry. It doesn’t have to be this negative ugly dance. If you focus on effective communication and you give the other person the benefit of the doubt, good communication skills, and a way to succeed in making you happy, you’ll be surprised at how secure of a response they really will give you.
Steve Shallenberger: Okay, great. Let’s end on telling us about positives to negatives. Do you mind?
Alisa Goodwin Snell: It’s really important. We need five positives to every one negative to have a long-term, sustaining relationship. It doesn’t matter which conflict style you have, if you’ve got less than five positives to one negative, your relationship is in danger – that’s at work, that’s in life. If you have a conflict-avoidant style, or if your partner has a conflict-avoidant style, you need 11 positives to every one negative because there are so many things you’re not resolving and talking about – so, you have to put a lot more positives in. So, if you’re somebody who likes conflict avoidance, you’re going to have to ask yourself the question, how can you put more positives in this relationship with the people that you’re not solving problems with? Because if you would simply solve more problems, you wouldn’t have to put so many positives. This is about success. What can you do to create a successful pattern? It is so worth it. And you are part of the problem. Whoever’s listening, whether you’re more anxious or avoidant, whatever it is; if you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem.
Steve Shallenberger: Well, this has been fun. It’s been fascinating. Any final tips for our listeners on how to have strong healthy relationships?
Alisa Goodwin Snell: Just check out lastingloveacademy.com. I’ve got a podcast here you should come listen to. And there are so many ways I can help. And follow up on some of these resources: Hold Me Tight, Gottman. There are a lot of great materials, I’d love to help you. I do dating and relationship strategies, I can personalize it to you. And I’m just really grateful to be here on this podcast. Thank you for having me.
Steve Shallenberger: So, tell us that website one more time, so we’ve got it drilled in there.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: Lastingloveacademy.com.
Steve Shallenberger: Well, thank you, Alisa, for being part of our show today. What an extremely valuable visit this has been and it’s been fun. So, thanks so much.
Alisa Goodwin Snell: Thank you. Good luck to all of you. I know you care about your relationships. You’re meant to succeed. You can do this. Thanks for having me.
Steve Shallenberger: Okay, it’s been great. And to all of our listeners, we wish you the best every single day. We’re so grateful for you. So nice to have you with us today. We wish you the best today and always. This is Steve Shallenberger, your host, signing off.
Steve Shallenberger
Alisa Goodwin Snell
America’s #1 Dating & Relationship Strategist